EO

I was doing research earlier in preparation for this conversation and read something that got me excited. One of them being that you don’t come from a place of needing to be on stage to perform, or rather being on the stage isn’t where you feel the most at home. You approach it more from a place purely performing to craft an experience and show a visual narration of the music that you make. You choose to perform for people.

DH

Exactly. [Laughs.] When I make music, it’s scratching an itch and comes from a very personal place. Whether it’s trying to get emotions down, explore my own feelings, or even trying a new aesthetic. When I was a teenager and would hear a band play, it was as simple as wanting to imitate the sound of that band which has continued to expand for me throughout my career. In terms of performance, specifically thinking about Blood Orange, it has always felt a little tricky for me because the fan in me understands the purpose of the live experience. Regardless of where I see the intellectual thing that I twist in my head about not feeling like I can perform because it’s so personal. But I throw that away and think about why I like music and the live experiences I’ve personally enjoyed the most. Through the years, I’ve realized I’m lucky that I view it the way that I do because it means that it stays its own separate process, completely detached from making the music.

EO

Really?

DH

Yeah. [Laughs.] In my mind, they’re not even slightly connected.

EO

When you start conceptualizing the visual part of the project and form references, how do you translate the words into images?

DH

In terms of videos, they start to form in my head around the same time but they come to me from the books I’m reading and experiences I’m having that I want to translate into visual material. Unlike making music, I have to conceptualize and storyboard on a practical level. Whereas with music, I can’t play everything live. Most of the time the songs aren’t even in a key, they’ve been run in one key and then have been twisted and I have to relearn the song in a new way, sometimes in an entirely different key. [Laughs.] And then I’ll find other musicians to help me play the music. I think about things I’m a fan of and then think of cultural moments that really excited me when I was younger and then I translate those experiences as well.

EO

Have you ever fully given over control to a creative director for your work?

DH

Well. . .this is already sounding shady. [Laughs.] I’m trying to be more diplomatic. I think creative directors are meant to look at what someone’s making and think of a way that it can exist in another realm and how it can be presented to the masses. They connect those dots. I don't necessarily need that service because the dots are already connected before I’ve made anything. What I do need, and frankly enjoy, and this is the same with music too, is collaborating with people who are exceptional in their fields and what they do.

EO

Yes, you’re really a fan of the entire process of making. I actually really respect how selflessly and effortlessly you collaborate with people because it’s taught me so much about giving people the capacity to find their own magic and work from that place intuitively.

DH

That’s all it is! [Laughs.] Also, I want people’s brains. I want to know what they’re thinking. I'm by myself most of the time and I get tired of my own ideas.

EO

What’s your relationship to ambition? What did you want from music? Did you always know that the work you were making had commercial potential?

DH

I don't think I’ve ever had ambition, but I’ve had drive. I think I'm a very driven person. But I don't know the destination. I'm just moving. It's weird because I've released music for so long now.

EO

How long is that?

DH

Way too long. [Laughs.] The first Test Icicles’ record was released in 2004. The music we made as a group has been consumed in a million different ways since then. Up until the third Blood Orange record, Cupid Deluxe, I just released music and it was almost like a void. People would maybe come to it, however they found it, and then it would be a year and then people would start saying things to me. The third record is where I saw the curve shift, which is based on the increase in popularity and at the same time a different form of consumption normalizing. It was wild seeing the industry shift with streaming where it became a place where you released music and then you knew immediately how people felt about it. 

EO

Emphasis on the immediately. [Laughs.]

DH

I’ve never read a Blood Orange review, so that transition was quite jarring for me. Going back to your first question, I’d never thought about how things could be received, but in general there’s been a couple of times where, because I’m a mega-fan and I’m obsessed with pop culture, I’ve become aware that my train is hitting some other train or cultural movement at the right time.

EO

What was that train?

DH

This is a really long time ago now, dude, but the Solange song–

EO

With Theophilus? or “Losing You”?

DH

“Losing You.” I kind of felt people would like it. [Laughs.] But it's a weird thing to say because I really don’t mean that we made it knowing that knowing that people would love it. I just had a feeling that the song was ripe for the mood and that time.

EO

Hm. But it’s like when you’re getting ready for your day…

DH

Okay, where’s this going?

EO

[Laughs.] You cut me off, though.

DH

[Laughs.] I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was narrating my thoughts.

EO

Because of that I'm going to get you. Watch it. [Laughs.] But it makes me think of the song, it wasn’t “Best to You.” But what song did you write in 15 minutes? You call them “freebies.”

DH

I stole that from someone, but I can’t remember. [Laughs.]

EO

I know you did–I later realized who but can’t remember now. [Laughs.] But you were like, I made this song. I just can't remember which, though.

DH

[Laughs.] I now remember who I stole it from but I don’t want to be that person. But better check the book. Ah, you mean Cupid Deluxe. “You're Not Good Enough,” maybe?

EO

Yes. I was thinking of the time we were sitting in Washington Square Park the summer of 2016. And you were like, “That song just came to me, as a ‘freebie,’” because you laid the track down so quickly.

DH

Super quick.

EO

[Laughs.] I was going to say something very succinct. It’s like feeling confused, bothered, or nervous and then taking a shower to relieve the tension in your body, then you get out and do the thing or lay down the track you’ve been thinking about relentlessly easily, and then you walk away and leave it. Then you revisit the next day or some weeks later. Actually, I know this to be your life. And mine. [Laughs.] You have this idea, and then you execute it, and then you leave your house and then play tennis or go to the Guitar Center near Union Square.

DH

Honestly, that does happen to me. [Laughs.] But to be fair, songs like that are rare. For the other ones, what actually happens is I obsessively listen to them–psychotically–like people would think I was a crazy person. I think that definitely happened with “Good Enough.” I get the basic idea down and then I'm super excited and just like loop loop loop loop loop it until the end.

EO

I was really excited to learn about your collaboration with Theophilus London and how that shifted things for your career.

DH

Oh, yeah. It’s how I met Solange Knowles. I’ve had some very good creative moments in L.A. for sure.

EO

Tell us what it was like. Those first moments with Theophilus London and Laurence Bell of Domino Recording Company, because while you were in Los Angeles, Laurence introduced you to the producer, Ariel Rechtshaid. You ended up working with him on your first album when you first went to L.A.

DH

Come on, come on. Oh my God, I'm actually impressed. I really am. Yes, so this is 2009. I met Theophilus London in New York. I think it started with me playing guitar and keyboard live for his band. It’s much easier for me to play in other people’s bands and play their music. I really enjoy doing that. I was playing with him, and then I was writing a bunch of songs on the side. I was also performing as Blood Orange solo around Brooklyn, and I would sell C.D.s of the songs I had made. And the C.D. I was selling featured my demo of “Losing You” and “Everything Is Embarrassing,” which later became the Sky Ferreira track and then a bunch of songs that became Blood Orange songs. And another song, which was this track called “Flying Overseas,” which is what I then gave to Theo. But the version I had was essentially this instrumental of a chorus. Around that time, I met Ariel Rechtshaid, who is an incredible producer. He invited me out to L.A. to lay down the first Blood Orange record. While I was doing that, Theo was in L.A. and he came to the studio to work on the “Flying Overseas”. He was friends with Solange, and he heard the track and was like, “Oh Solange would sound really good on this chorus.” So she came down to the studio and that’s how we met.

EO

You talked about laying down part of the track in Bushwick with Theophilus.

DH

Yeah, wait, I'm trying to look up where we did it, though. Because I was similar then as I am now where I record anywhere I can. If there’s an open studio, I’ll go and try to make something. I need to upgrade the vibe, to be honest, but yeah, Terrible Records, which was created by Ethan Silverman and Chris Taylor, of Grizzly Bear. Chris had this studio on top of a church in Bushwick or Bed-Stuy. And so I recorded a bunch of stuff there, and then I recorded some stuff at Patrick Wimberly’s place. He was in Chairlift. And now he's also thriving. He did the Lil Yachty “Let’s Start Here.” album and stuff like that. Theo and I must have recorded at one of those two places. I don't remember which it was. [Laughs.]

EO

“Flying Overseas” was a cultural reset. It’s cool because the palette of your own sound and production is present in that song. In the interview I was watching, you said you had this newfound confidence because of working with Solange and Theophilus.

DH

Absolutely. I’d had credits as a producer on maybe two things before that. But they were accidental production credits. It was more that they didn't change demos I worked on or something like that. But that was the first time they called me a producer, where I made a song and then they performed it. At that point, I hadn’t even done that for my own stuff. So I was quite shocked, but it took me having these other people I really respect who wanted my thought process to dictate the sound. After that experience, I just started doing everything myself.

EO

There's so many things I want to talk about. [Laughs.]

DH

Let's go.

EO

Collaboration. Our dear friend Aaron Maine is in the room tonight, known professionally as Porches. I met Dev through Aaron in 2015. I learned so much through just being in the room with you guys, specifically the sacrality of collaboration and being vulnerable and what it takes to succeed. But so much of what I know, I'm realizing, I learned from being around you guys when I was in my early twenties. You're such a generous person creatively. Is that something that’s always been intuitive for you?

DH

Thank you, that’s really nice. It’s very intuitive, and honestly, it comes from playing sports, because I grew up playing football quite intensely, and then at the same time, if you wanna put it back into the context of music, when I was playing cello in orchestra as a child. Being in these environments where you had the thing you're good at and are responsible for on the team taught me all I needed to know, which is why I really love working with people who have a thing they’re excellent at doing. But with me, if I respect someone, and I like how they think, then I can collaborate with them on anything, it doesn’t even matter.

EO

It sounds like you have this kind of composer mentality, where you are the organizing principle, but you’re always thinking about what’s missing and what kind of components can be slotted in to improve the overall experience of the body of sound.

DH

It's not a rule or anything, but I’ve always felt like a Blood Orange record is something that I start and finish. But in the sense that everything in the middle is up for grabs. I create the first sound at the beginning, and in the middle it could even just entirely be me doing every single thing or if someone I like might be in the room with me they can be involved, too. And then at some point, I tie the knot, and I finish it. If I like someone, I will always listen to them because it's interesting to see what comes from the exchange. 

EO

Music is a language for you. It’s like you write and you reflect in it. It’s like a diary.

DH

Yes. It’s a diary. Which is why it was always tricky to put that language on display on stage.

EO

I’ve seen you perform in so many different contexts, in so many cities.

DH

True.

EO

I am the friend that’s like, “Can I get that plus one?”

DH

You are that friend. [Laughs.] How many times did you come to the show with Harry Styles at Madison Square Garden? Twice? 

EO

[Laughs.] Just once. I’ve gotten better. But I went to the Kennedy Center. The only place I think I didn’t see you was at the Apollo Theater in Harlem, devastatingly enough, because it was too crazy. Then there was another one. Was it a live performance on Seth Meyers?

DH

Those performances are stressful.

EO

Let’s talk about endurance both in terms of your craft but also your lifestyle. You move around a lot, constantly in motion.

DH

[Laughs.] I don't know why that is. Maybe I do. Yeah, I run around a lot, but I'm trying, this is going to sound so “music,” but when I'm running around, I travel with my hard drive and it is extremely grounding to me. It’s like my thing because a lot of the music I work on for records, some of them are ideas that started a decade ago. Things I’ve lived with and have been listening to for God knows how long.

EO

What does that old material mean to you? How often do you revisit it?

DH

Daily. But it’s weird because in my mind it never feels like I'm digging in old material. Because I’m constantly tweaking and working through these things. And they're very safe. They feel safe.

EO

You're really like a painter in a way. [Laughs.] But in terms of layering a piece.

DH

It happens a lot. I think nearly every Blood Orange record has a song that is at least seven or eight years old.

EO

What did it feel like with Cupid Deluxe? Specifically the success of it. It’s having its ten-year anniversary.

DH

Oh my God. Thanks for reminding me. I was thinking of doing something, but I didn’t put it together, so it might not happen. [Laughs.] That isn’t even the first or second Blood Orange record. Because I first released a mixtape then after an EP. And then also before that there were two Lightspeed Champion albums. Obviously, it’s nice when people like what you do. But it was interesting because in a way making it was really the first time putting what’s in my head down musically. It’s the first time I’ve produced entirely myself, so it really was this thing that I was chucking down. And seeing that people liked it shook up my brain a little bit. But it was cool. I got to do things on that record that I think laid a lot of groundwork for my life. Like there’s a song with David Longstreth on it from Dirty Projectors. I’d known David from around New York and I always loved Dirty Projectors.

EO

Isn't Caroline [Polachek] on that record?

DH

Caroline Polacheck and Skepta are on that record. I mean, it was like these people who I'm friends with, who I love. It all seems very simple now, but the idea that you can just make music and do what you want, it sounds crazy, but it just didn’t feel so obvious at the time. That was the beginning of me being like, “Oh, maybe I just won’t sing on this song and someone better does.” 

EO

Can you talk about Solange and the making of her 2012 EP, True? All of which came shortly after recording “Flying Overseas.”

DH

After that song, we spoke about working together, but it was actually quite a long time before her record came out. We worked on the record from like 2009 until it was released in 2012. Then it was released on Terrible Records. So we found ourselves recording in these different spaces, working on music together. Then I’d go away, and I’d be working on my music, and I'd write. Then I’d come back and bring it and send it to her. It was cool. I mean, it was super organic. I need to mention this guy called ‘Blue.’

EO

Mikaelin Bluespruce. Yes, legendary engineer. 

DH

He’s the best. He’s mixed and engineered every Solange record, and he mixes my scores.

EO

I've been in that room. [Laughs.]

DH

You have been in the Lounge Studios. [Laughs.]

EO

I invited myself into that room, people. [Laughs.] Sometimes you have to invite yourself into places.

DH

That's how you do it.

EO

Or you have to meet up with Dev at 2:00 p.m. on a Wednesday.

DH

[Laughs.] When I’m on my way.

EO

And then you stay with Dev until 1:00 a.m. But also can you speak about the actual creative process? Because, selfishly, one of my favorite songs you guys made for True is “Bad Girls.” But you originally recorded that demo for Terrible, right?

DH

Yes. It was on the 7-inch record I released and then we redid it. Solange had the crazy idea of bringing someone in to play bass, because I was doing this really intense slap bass on the demo, and she suggested bringing in Verdine White from Earth, Wind & Fire, so he came in and played bass. I was just like, “What the fuck?” I'll never forget this. And so he comes over and he’s learning the song at that moment so I had to hold the bass and play it and we were closer than you and I are now. We were head to head while the track was playing and he was just staring in my eyes.

EO

Trying to find the...magic? [Laughs.]

DH

Find the bass. [Laughs.] Trying to find the notes.

EO

Oh, where was it recorded?

DH

The only thing that was re-recorded, I think, for the Solange version was bass and the guitar solo. But everything else was done in my bedroom, which was actually in this shared space on Wythe Street and North 4th Street in Williamsburg, in New York. This is a tangent, but it’s now a J.Crew. [Laughs.] And, actually, this is a side story. But when Hurricane Sandy hit, there was a group of us living in this space. And I stayed at a friend’s in Gowanus. And then got a call that there was a slumlord and that he was kicking us all out. So I had to walk from Gowanus to Wythe. And then we all had to move out with all our stuff.

EO

Where did most of the EP take place?

DH

It was like 10 million places. It was kind of hectic. Some of it was Santa Barbara. Some of it was different places in L.A., some was even in Houston. Some recordings happened in New York, of course. But it was finished in New York.

EO

But wait, I want to talk about After School in London. [Laughs.]

DH

The club? He’s really done his research. [Laughs.] It’s kind of cool. Yeah, After School Club.

EO

Yeah. It was the major happening club in London as Dev was coming up in his late teens. You met Florence Welch there.

DH

Yeah, all those people.

EO

And then you also met Adele?

DH

Not, “Adele.” But Tottenham-born Adele.

EO

So let’s talk about these people that have these names. [Laughs.]

DH

Okay honestly, I owe a lot to After School. This is the origin story of Test Icicles. Yeah, basically, we just wanted our song played in this club. It’s kind of as simple as that.

EO

Right. What kind of club was it?

DH

So it was at the London School of Economics. They turned it into a club at night. In terms of outside of London, famous stuff, it’s where Pulp went. It’s where Jarvis Cocker studied and wrote a lot of songs about that club. “Disco 2000” and stuff like that. So it’s this very indie-centric club. And I met Sam Mehran and Rory Attwell and...eventually, we were in Test Icicles. But I met Ferry Gouw, who is kind of like the genesis of all of this happening. I'll be really quick because I don’t want to be boring. But we used to form bands every few days and play one-off shows when I'm a teenager. One day, Ferry, who now is actually a very successful graphic designer, who also created the Major Lazer cartoons, Ferry and Sam had a band called Balls. [Laughs.] We were teenagers.

EO

Seventeen.

DH

And one day, he comes to us like, “Hey, so... I got asked if Balls could open for the Unicorns. The Unicorns were playing in Nottingham at this club. And he got asked. But Ferry, who is Indonesian, had to go back to Indonesia to renew his visa. So he told the promoter, Balls isn't gonna play, but Test Icicles will play. [Laughs.] But it didn’t exist. He just made the name up. He told us that on Thursday, and the show was on Sunday. And so he was like, “Hey, I'm going out of town, but if you turn up and just play some songs and say you’re Test Icicles, you can see the Unicorns.” So we spent Friday and Saturday rehearsing. We had one four-track and one eight-track. So we worked on some shit. And then took the train up to Narnia.

EO

Boom. Wait, speaking of names, I am surprised I never knew the origin of why you penned yourself Blood Orange. I was excited to learn that it came from this drawing you made when you were in high school?

DH

Oh, yeah. [Laughs.] There's also that.

EO

Okay, so you didn’t give me anything about Adele or Florence and the Machine. What was the scene?

DH

Well, a year or so after that, I lived with a guy named Simon Taylor-Davis, who then formed Klaxons, and I mean there were only two clubs. There was After School and White Heat. And so if you are born between like 1982 and, I don't know, let’s say ’89 and into anything vaguely indie, you just went to those two clubs.

EO

We talked about your various music performances but we haven't talked about Philip Glass yet. I've seen you perform his “20 Etudes” at the Kennedy Center, I saw you perform at Carnegie Hall. Let’s talk about what that actually means to you. Also because you have said that you prefer to memorize the work rather than read sheet music. However, the most recent iteration of the Julius Eastman performance Radical Adornment, that you performed alongside Adam Tendler at the 92Y, felt like you were performatively reading the sheet music.

DH

Well, that’s because you can’t memorize the score because Julius Eastman writes pieces to a clock. So you have to look at the timer, and depending on what time it is on the clock, you have to play a different part of the sheet music.

EO

You had to adhere to someone else’s rules and logic. It was such a treat seeing you perform that piece because your musicianship comes through.

DH

Thank you, I'm unsure about my musicianship, so I appreciate that.

EO

It's so cool seeing you perform in those spaces. What has it been like for you reconnecting with this original part of your story?

DH

It's nice you brought up Philip Glass. So the “freebie" thing was a Philip Glassism. Now I can say it because you brought his name up. [Laughs.]

EO

Oh, yes! It’s Mr. Glass.

DH

You planned that?

EO

No, I didn't.

DH

It would've been cool.

EO

[Laughs.] But I do actually remember watching an interview he did that year after you had said it. And then I thought, did he really just–I know he didn't bite off of Mr. Glass.

DH

No, it’s crazy. I didn’t dream of playing in these classical arenas and being involved in them. But it wasn’t because I didn’t want to, I just didn't think it was possible for me. So it was more about uncertainty than anything. The fact that it’s happening and that I'm in these spaces, I’m again being able to perform as a pianist on pieces, I'm just kind of enjoying it, is the short answer. But it is very, very, very important for me. If there’s one thing I’m intentional about, which has become very important for me, is to fully show up as myself when I’m performing in those spaces. Because in a rare moment of being self-aware, I think specifically because classical training is something I did when I was younger, I'm instantly reminded of being a young classical music fan. And in that moment, I think about what it would’ve been like to see anyone even vaguely in my realm, dressed like me. So I'll keep my baseball hat on. It makes it easier for me to feel really natural and not like I'm having to metaphorically climb some huge staircase to be in this space.

EO

I have one dirty question to ask. None of them in the past were dirty.

DH

Okay, cool.

EO

I'm curious about Mariah Carey. One, because I love her album, Caution, that you were a producer on.

DH

That's a good album.

EO

There’s so many people you engaged specifically on records that were so of the moment, like Gangsta Boo. This can potentially be a rumor, and I've never asked you this, but I remember hearing somewhere that you worked with Mariah because of Jay-Z?

DH

That is true. I didn't just find out, but she told me a while after we had worked together. I'm not like friends with Jay-Z by the way. [Laughs.] I think I need to explain that.

EO

How do you feel having accomplished so much?

DH

It’s a complicated question. Being completely honest, especially in recent years, I have a large sense of almost survivor’s guilt. I have very complex feelings and emotions related to the idea of success and what it means. But also at the same time, I feel very privileged and lucky because I’m able to help my family out through the years. But I guess, maybe simplifying it is just life. But being from Essex in East London, I think about everything, especially in the last few years, growing up and I don't understand why I was so driven. But I see what it’s done. But there’s positives and negatives about. . .

EO

Of course.

DH

Positives are great, but there are definitely negatives, which I see. And then also as I get older and people have continued to pass away, like Sam, who I was in Test Icicles with, and most recently Gangsta Boo.

Just the struggles that these people go through and I'm aware of, and you can't really do anything to help. It’s a mixed bag, but there is a greater good in the sense of things I’ve been able to do for my family. And then on the other side, earlier this year, I had this moment where—and this might sound really stupid because I’m 37 about to turn 38—but I had a moment where there was a song in particular that I just heard playing, and the song sounded like someone was speaking from my mind directly to me. And that’s not to say I’ve not had moments with music where I feel like I’ve connected. But I think in those moments, a lot of the time, I felt like I've been spoken to. Like, I think I’ve listened to music, and I’ve loved it, and I’ve had these kinds of connections since I was a child. I think a lot of those times it just felt like I was being understood, which is very different to hearing something and feeling like it’s coming from your own soul.

Speaker 1

How did the collaboration with Deana Lawson come about for Freetown Sound?

DH

I was a big fan and I reached out to her. When I reached out to her, I was thinking more of us collaborating on something in the video world. I was still working on the album when we first connected. And I was sending her songs and playing them to her. And then also, which was kind of a blessing, is that we’re both incredibly flaky. [Laughs.] We're both quite hard to pin down and reply. So, there were these moments where we weren’t replying to each other.

EO

[Laughs.] Stars, they’re just like us.

DH

Each person would think the other was mad, but we were just both being weird and flaky. Anyway, so the video thing never happened. I realized I kept looking at this one picture in this book of hers. I couldn’t shake it and then I realized if I’m doing that, there must be a reason. I thought, “Why am I trying to find this other thing?” And she was super gracious and super into the idea of the photograph being the album cover.

Speaker 2

Of course, hindsight is 20/20. But if you could redo any songs in your career what would they be?

DH

That's a good question. I'm not usually this person, but I have an answer today because I was actually thinking about an earlier song of mine. There’s this band in England that was one of my favorite bands called Mansun. On Cupid Deluxe, I covered one of their songs called “I Can Only Disappoint U.” And I called my cover, “Always Let U Down.” I've been revisiting Mansun records this last week. I almost forgot that I covered one of the songs. So this morning I listened to it and I had the thought because I did a little thing where I changed the chords around a little bit, and I felt like I laid the guitar too neatly. That’s what comes to mind because this morning I was like, “Not going to lie, my guitar’s a little annoying.” [Laughs.] It’s like it just keeps going and going, going.

Speaker 3

Are there any movies that serve as a visual or an inspiration for your music?

EO

You're a big cinema person.

DH

[Laughs.] I'm definitely a big film person. I am a nerd. There’s different things for different parts of the Blood Orange world. For the record I'm working on now, it’s a lot about where I grew up, which was Essex. And so I haven’t re-watched these yet, but early Andrea Arnold films, which are all based around there, like Wasp. What she portrays in those films is what it was like growing up there. So that is quite a strong visual reference for me.